In this podcast episode, Slim and Lou chat with Scott Snyder himself!

Primary topic this episode: Scott Snyder! Other topics include Scott following Image right from the beginning, copying Rob Liefeld up and down, getting a signed piece of art from Todd McFarlane on his 13th birthday, responding to and feeling less alone with comics, writing books that mean the most to you, creating from scratch at Image, catharsis while writing, Image’s unique release schedule, coming back to the horror genre, Jock is kind of a big deal okay, The Green Room, The VVitch, Jeff Lemire is pretty awesome, and what Scott’s reading!

Matt: Tia, we’re back.

Tia: We are back.

Matt: Biggest show probably in podcast history.

Tia: For once, you’re right.

Matt: It’s the second time we’ve interviewed him, but we’re here to celebrate the 25th anniversary of Image Comics, with unarguably, an icon in the field. A.D. After Death is currently out, Severed from a previous run in Image. Wytches, which has been added to CU up until its most recent issues, welcome to the show Scott Snyder.

Scott: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It’s an honor to be back.

Matt: 25 years of Image, Scott, can you believe it?

Scott: I cannot believe it. I’m so proud to be a part of it in a tiny way. It really is like an incredible legacy.

Matt: What was your history with Image Comics? Did you make the jump over as a reader when it all began?

Scott: Oh completely. Completely. I was deep into the comics scene right at that time. I had a portfolio. I wanted to be a comic book artist. I copied Erik Larsen, Todd McFarlane, Jim Lee, like all those guys. I mean Liefeld. I copied Liefeld up and down. I love that whole sort of stylistic flare that was there that felt like kind of the way I’d loved kind of Kirby stuff, where it felt exaggerated in different ways in Larsen and even in Jim’s stuff, with that kind of realism. There was still this kind of almost over the top stone carved quality to the characters that was part of his style. It was just such a celebratory moment, artistically, where creators were taking their careers into their hands, but they also had such unique voices that it was a really thrilling thing to be involved in as a fan.

My dad and I would go to New York Comic Con at that time. We’d go over to the Penn Plaza Hotel, where it was just a bunch of guys with longboxes and I waited for Todd McFarlane on my 13th birthday, I remember, for 2 hours? 3 hours? And got a page from him. I told him it was my birthday. He signed it to me and drew me a Spidey on the back. I still have it right here in my office. It’s Spidey 319. It’s a great page and has him sneaking into Aunt May’s house and taking off his costume. He’s all bruised up, you know?

I was a huge fan of what they did both sort of … As I’ve become part of the industry now, I think I have a much deeper appreciation of the bravery it took to make that move and the sort of doors that it had opened for all of us. My generation of writers and artists are benefiting from kind of the daring of that generation. Yeah, I was a big fan of what they were doing then, and an even bigger fan now.

Matt: Did you ever go up to Todd now, since then and be like “Hey, check out this thing that you drew me when I was 13?”

Scott: Oh yeah! Yeah, we were on a radio show together a couple of years ago. I knew I was going to be on it with him. It was in New York. I took a picture of the page and showed it to him. He was super kind. I’ve hung out with him a bunch of times since, because Capullo’s was really good friends with him. Whenever we’re all in town, we usually go out for lunch. I’ve been out with him a number of times. The first time I had seen him since I was 13 was that, on a show, and I showed him on my phone. Like I still have this page. It’s framed in my office. “Thank you, because it meant a lot to me.”  He was so kind. He gave it to me for like barely anything at the time. It was when my dad was like, “It’s his birthday.” He gave it to me for super cheap and drew on it and wrote, and drew me a full Spidey head and happy birthday.“ He’s super kind.

Tia: I feel like the fact that you have had this experience and you know how important comics can be for people really comes through in all of your work. Wytches was actually my first book of yours that I ever read. There’s so many things I have feelings about, because it’s a horror book, but it’s also just such a powerful emotional book about depression and about being brave. I remember a particular flashback scene where Sailor’s yelling at her dad in the hospital about how he can’t help her with her depression, because he’s “not in the room. “

Scott: Yeah.

Tia: I was crying in public. I was actually on a plane, crying over this page. I really related to it. You feel like you’re so alone in that. Then all of a sudden, this person, this person you have so much admiration for, like explains it perfectly. Other people read it and they respond to it in a positive way. It just makes you feel less alone. I don’t know. Comics can be really powerful. I see that in not just in your creator owned work, but also in your Batman books and things like that. Are you able to just like separate feelings when you’re writing? Is this just something that is in everything that you write?

Scott: Well thanks for saying that. I really appreciate it, by the way, Tia. The beauty of Image is they’re almost like inverted sort of tasks writing for a place like DC and writing for Image, because the goal is always the same, which is to make stories that speak to things that you’re concerned about, that keep you up at night or inspire you in those ways. When I teach, that’s always sort of the golden rule, is that if it’s not the books that would mean the most to you when you pick it up today, then don’t write it. The kind of rules or the sort of format beg very different things of you.

At Image, essentially you’re going in there with nobody invested in anything that you are bringing to the table. They don’t know the mythology of your series. They don’t know your characters. It’s inherently really important to you and they know that, or you wouldn’t be writing it. You have to get everybody else to sort of see that the world that you’re creating and the characters that you’re creating are something that they should take the time to believe in.

With The Big Two, they already care deeply about the characters and the whole world. You’re trying to sort of show them that you care about these characters in a way that allows you to write to things that, again, sort of you find to be anxiety through yourself or anxieties in the air at that minute. They’re really different muscles that you flex on either one, but I kind of find that the only times that I’ve taken time off from create your own, I got really depressed even though I loved the books that I was working on at DC. I didn’t have any place to go where it was completely mine, where I knew all the rules and I could go anywhere I wanted. It was almost like a tree house. Without that, I realized pretty quickly that it’s just not healthy for me creatively.

They’re very different, but they almost have this kind of strange symbiotic relationship to each other for me where I enjoy going into the kind of box of Batman and that stuff, where there are rules that you have to sort of abide by, and also expectations on the character, and a kind of investment in the character that you’re almost working against sometimes to get things in there that you care about or trying to sort of make a story that’s personal. I love the way you’re able to do it. I feel really grateful to DC for letting me sort of go so far afield sometimes to get points across.

But then with creator owned, you’re trying to bring everybody in, because you, obviously, from go, already care about the stuff that you’re writing about, because you’re creating it from scratch. Somehow they work in a really interesting way for me, where at this particular moment, I’m working on After Death. Well I just finished it, but I was working on After Death for almost two years with Jeff Lemire. It’s largely about a sort of a guy with a crippling fear of mortality, which he winds up being able to sidestep, because they create a cure for death, for aging, that he’s a part of.

Having that and having All-Star Batman and then this kind of Batman story I’ve been working on with Greg Capullo on the side, which is sort of the other end of the comic spectrum entirely, where it’s like “you’ll never get away with this.” You know? Joker and world ending machines from grand stuff. Just the zaniest, craziest stuff over there. Then on this end, it’s like prose and trying to sort of do the needlework of that.

That’s what I really love is that’s my happy place is sort of the elasticity of that, trying to have one thing. Always doing stuff that kind of challenges you in one way or another, where you’re doing something in the superhero world that is ambitious or sort of outside your wheelhouse, and working with different people that you have or if you’re working with somebody the same that you’ve worked with before, trying something really new, and then at Image, or create your own. Trying to do things, again, that sort of push you outside of your comfort zone.

I have a bunch of ideas for other series that are like, which is I have horror series in my head. I’ve sketched a couple to Image and they’ve been really nice about them. I’m sure I’ll do them some day, but I want to do A.D. or do something like that, because I didn’t know if I could. You know? Trying that, those are the writers that I admire the most and I look up to the most, I think, are the guys that, and the women that try things constantly that surprise you. I know I fall on my face sometimes, but I’d rather kind of zig-zag and try the things at the farther end of the spectrum and fail. I think there’s a certain kind of story at this point both on Batman, like in super heroes and in create your own that I can do pretty easily, I think, just because I’ve done it so many times. You know? It’s better to, for me at least, get out of your comfort zone, I guess.

Sorry that’s sort of a corn maze answer to probably what was a simple question.

Tia: Perfectly all right. It sounds like this is the sort of thing that could be really exhausting or leave you feeling really raw. It sounds like you found a way to make it almost cathartic in a way.

Scott: Yeah. There are definitely times this year, where I’ve fallen down. I’m pretty open about, I think, at least I try to be. I don’t usually talk when I’m having hard time and say I’m having a hard time, because of probably the most basic way. My family reads Twitter. My family reads, my parents, my extended family actually looks at that stuff. I never really air my, "Oh I’m having difficulty right now.” I always worry that it’s going to freak everybody out. I think people should, 100%, reach out when they’re having trouble publicly.

Yes, the stretch in between those kinds of projects is really invigorating. I love it. My plans for next year is the same kind of thing, where I want to do the kind of series you wouldn’t expect from me, and do another project, do a different kind of project that’s smaller and more sort of more almost like comic-strippy.

At times, I have an idea for some, but trying to do these things that surprise you but at the same time understanding that at least twice in the process of writing After Death, I had a really difficult period, where I got really insecure and felt like I’m not good enough at this. “I’m not going to be able to pull this off. Nobody’s going to care about this. This isn’t any good. What are you doing? Why are you doing this? You should’ve played safe.” All of that.

The great thing about working with somebody like Jeff Lemire, who’s literally my best friend, or one of my best friends, if not my best friend for the last seven years, is that he was always there to say, “Take a breath. I’ve seen you go through this before. Pick it up. Relax. Take some time and get back to it.”

The fact that I’m so proud of the book. It’s certainly an imperfect book. I’m sure I screwed lots of things up I don’t see in it yet. The fact that I was able to complete something with my partner, my friend, that really gave me a tough time, because it looked right at stuff that I don’t like looking at sometimes about myself and my own fears and how selfish and self involved they can be, and all that stuff, and how you disengage from the world sometimes over them, and all of that stuff. I’m really proud that I was able to make it with somebody who was like family to me. In that way, it means something special beyond just being a book I put on the shelf with art by Jeff Lemire.

Anyway, I guess what I’m saying is, in relation to what you’re asking, the short answer is yeah, it’s kind of like the best thing and the worst thing. You push yourself, and then I know myself long enough to know that sometimes regardless, a wheel falls off. I get into a sort of very self destructive mode. I can get depressed about it and worry and go through those things. Ultimately, I have good people, good friends around me. I’m still going to keep wanting to try those things.

Image certainly provides an incredible support system too. I got to give a lot credit there to Stephenson and everybody there, because A.D. changed forms a couple of times from being 100 pages to being almost 200 pages, and needing a little bit more time. They’ve always been incredibly supportive just about being really receptive to whatever form the book was going to take. They’ve been great about it. They’re a wonderful place for creators in that regard too.

Matt: Yeah, After Death is a format that I’d never really thought about before. In fact, when new books come out from creators, I try to not read any previews. I just want to read it like the day it comes out, maybe outside of a like a two sentence pitch. I was totally shocked when there’s a mixture of prose and art and kind of maybe what people are used to with monthly comic book storytelling.

It’s obviously a great book too, but what I always appreciate from Image, and I’m interested to know from your standpoint, that Image has a very interesting release schedule. It’s not twice a month or once a month. With certain creators and titles, you can kind of put out a few issues for a few months and then take a break, and then the trade comes out. It allows for a certain amount of flexibility for the creators, and most especially, the artist to kind of get their bearings in between. Is that something that you also see as a comfortable flexibility? Is it something you’d want to see other publishers adopt as well?

Scott: I wish it was the standard format, honestly. I love serialized comics. I love the idea of every month, you go in the store and getting my fix, but as a creator, it’s much more … It’s a sort of format I wished DC and Marvel would adopt, just because it gives you time to refresh. It gives you time to sort of regroup. It gives you time to get people interested in what you’re doing, because you have that break where the trade comes out. I love it. I understand the pitfalls of it too, which is like a perfect example, where taking a break, we both fell into projects, me and Jock. I think I can say it freely now: He got a job as the second costume designer on Star Wars Episode 8. He showed me a picture of Mark Hamill wearing the clothes he designed and all that stuff.

Matt: Oh my gosh!

Scott: It was like take as long as you need, dude. Just take as long as you need. Then I really got caught up in A.D. and went through a period where I was super focused on just trying to see if I can get past the middle point and really get the hardest stuff out of the way. There’s a danger in it too in that way. I understand that, where we’ve taken much longer off on Wytches than I would’ve liked and he would’ve liked, but it’s certainly more my fault than his, I would say. Now that we’re back or we’re coming back, I think the benefits of that format present themselves too, because the story picks up two years later. There’s a lot of fun to that as well.

Tia: I have to say I’m really pumped for what I have come to call “sandwytches.”

Scott: Yeah, right!

Tia: I feel like it just makes it even more terrifying, because you just avoid the trees and you’ll be fine. Apparently, not. I don’t know. What about the horror genre keeps you kind of going back to that? I feel like you’re obviously such a nice person. You’re a very congenial sort of guy. Yet, you are able to create these books that are terrifying or heart wrenching. I don’t know. Tell me what the draw is.

Scott: You know, it’s funny. I don’t know. When I was a kid, I just always loved horror. I don’t know if it was like because I was anxious or because you just like seeing popular kids get slaughtered or whatever in the Friday the 13th series. I think as I’ve gotten older, I think the thing that I respond to, and I hope is what I was responding to when I was younger is the idea that to me, when horror is done well, it’s really almost you facing down conflict in its purest form. When it’s done well, the monster, the terrifying thing is an extension of the fears that you have about yourself, or the fears that you have about the world, kind of personified in this horrifying thing or in person or the killer or whatever it is.

That was why my favorite movie even as a little kid, I mean I remember vividly having rented a bunch of slaughter movies. I think I might have said this to you in the last podcast, but there was a video store where I grew up in 26th street and 3rd avenue, called the Video Stop. It only closed maybe five years ago too, which is incredible. They would deliver R-rated movies to your house, but you couldn’t get them there. As a kid, if you have them delivered, you were fine, but you couldn’t pick them up there.

All the kids in the neighborhood knew the secret and would have R-rated movies delivered, so we’d have these horror movie parties, whatever. I’ve seen all these slasher movies everyone wanted to see, like Sleepaway Camp 2, and all that kind of crazy stuff. One day, I rented Night of the Living Dead, like the original black and white. I was so disappointed that it was black and white. I was like, “This is going to suck.” Then watching it, I watched it and it disturbed me. I had nightmares. It was really the first time I had ever seen a move that really got under my skin in a way that was above my head. Like I shouldn’t have seen it.

The thing that I realized later is the reason that it was so powerful and it’s my favorite move, is that it’s this small march of terror that says that the zombies are not the thing to be afraid of, that we’re the thing to be afraid. That sense of hopelessness and the cruelty in the movie, where everybody dies, spoiler, but it came out in 1960 whatever, so if you haven’t seen it, you’ve had plenty of time! That sense of no one making it out and all because of human error was so bleak that it really shook me.

I think afterwards, thinking back, the reason that I’m so attracted to horror as a genre is that when it’s done well that way, you’re up against a monster, so there’s fun and there’s bombast, but you’re really up against the things that you’re afraid to look at about the world or yourself.

Even in drama, if I’m writing Superman, for example, I try and write it like I would write a horror book, where this thing that he’s up against, the villain, is a deconstruction of all the things that he takes safety in somehow. You take those things that are dear to him that he finds this is what makes me me. This is what makes me happy. You flip them and say, “This is what makes you weak. This is what makes you vulnerable. I’m coming for you.” And that sense that whether it has monsters or blood or gore or whatever, you write for that thing that you think is at the heart of good horror, if that makes sense. You know?

Tia: Savage.

Matt: Have you seen The Green Room? I watched that a few weeks ago and I felt like that was a very strange one.

Scott: I really liked that a lot. You’re talking about the punk rock -

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. With neo nazis.

Scott: Yeah, dude, I loved that. It’s that kind of stuff where it’s like just those fears that you are almost primal. Where you take something … It is. It’s taking the thing that you find safety in and flipping it. Stephen King is just a genius at that. It’s like your family dog or your car. You know? Your father in The Shining. Anything that’s like hey, this is what makes me feel really at home. It’s like, no, that thing is a murderous, terrible, frightening thing that’s coming after you.

That movie, I thought, spoke to that in that way of like, that fun of like punk rock. We’re rebellious. We’re going here. We’re doing this and that’s the youth. The immortality of youth and that feeling of like you’re invulnerable. Then it’s like, no, you’re not. You’re going to get your hand chopped off in a door.

Matt: God, that scene was so horrifying.

Scott: I know. I know.

Matt: Also I think the other scene that kind of made me sit up and be like, okay, they’re really doing it was when, and I don’t think it’s really a spoiler, but it’s when the one guy, the girl, the guy’s in like headlock, the one bad guy. The girl takes the knife and just runs it up his chest. Do you remember that scene?

Scott: Oh yeah, I remember. Yeah.

Matt: Oh my god. Man alive.

Scott: Yeah!

Tia: You’re both such nice guys, and you’re just the most blood thirsty nice guys.

Scott: Well the most brutal movie I’ve seen in years was this movie called Martyrs. That was the other night. I watched just month or so. I don’t know if you’ve seen this.

Matt: No. Tell me.

Scott: Oh god. It’s a French movie. It’s way over the lines. Just prepare yourself for … It’s almost unwatchably brutal. It has this really terrifying sort of purpose. That’s what I mean. You can go as horror, like gory and whatever you want, if it serves some kind of purpose in that way. Those films like that and those books. I was a huge Stephen King fan all through my youth. I still am, obviously. When you find somebody who earns the violence and the scares because they all speak to something. It’s always invigorating, because it feels purposeful, like Night of the Living Dead and so on.

Tia: In other creatively spelled Wytch media, did you see the movie, The VVitch?

Scott: I did. I thought that was really well done. I liked The VVitch quite a bit. It has that constantly eerie, creepy dread sort of feel.

Tia: Maybe not so much with the slashing people with knives. I feel like that was, yeah, that was a creepy, uncomfortable feeling for the entire movie.

Scott: Yeah, just the loneliness, you know? That’s the other thing I love about the … I love when people are able to take things that are deeply ingrained in sort of the focal of the things that you grew up with. The myth of a witch or a werewolf or a vampire, those kinds of things, and make them new again for you now and speak to things that are scary right now. You know? I always love that, like what you’re saying with Green Room or things like that, where you’re finding movies or books that suddenly make something that you thought was sort of an enduring but recently gotten tired concept or trope into something really sort of immediate and urgent. I think with the news the way it is now I’m sure there will be a lot of that, a lot of like resurgence of classic monsters and brand new ways.

Matt: Yeah, seriously.

Tia: On the subject of that, I was just wondering when I was rereading Wytches before we talked to you, can you pledge people you’ve never met?

Scott: Yeah, you can. All you have to do is sort of … You have to mark them though. You’d have to go to them and mark them.

Tia: Got you.

Scott: It’s sort of like you use this tincture. You have to go to their place and do it, but you can pledge pretty much anyone. That was the thing. I mean it’s definitely been a theme in a lot of stuff I’d done in a bunch of Batman, but also which is in other things, is the sides of yourself that you keep hidden from the world, the things you don’t want people to see about yourself, the ugliness and those things.

In some ways, now it feels more potent than ever, not being explicitly … My politics are pretty obvious. I’m on Twitter all the time about them, but not in a way that picks sides, but in a way that the acrimony and the discourse is so ugly. The things that people feel about each other behind closed doors that they don’t say, those things seem to be driving a lot of conversation and a lot of action right now. I think there’s a lot of energy, for me at least, writing the second arc of Wytches and all that stuff too, where you don’t feel like you know your neighbor pretty well.

Matt: Last question and we’ll let you go.

Scott: Sure.

Matt: The last question we usually ask folks what have you been reading? What would you recommend to people that are listening today?

Scott: Oh yeah. With Image, there’s so many good things. I’m a big fan of Josh Williamson’s Nailbiter, which I know is closing down, but I just caught up and just adore that series. That’s great horror. Going back to what we were saying. If you’re out there and want a good horror book.

I just picked up this new book. I’ve read the first two issues, because I got them early, but God Country by Danny Cates and Geoff Shaw, from Image. It’s great. It’s really good. It’s this blend of heartfelt sort of family drama and larger than life mythology. It’s really good. It takes place in the Texas plains. It’s really, really good.

Paper Girls, I love. Brian is awesome. Cliff is awesome. They’re old friends, so it’s always great to see them do something invigorating. I caught up with that recently. I love the Batgirl team. I have to give a plug to Motor Crush as well.

Honestly, above all, Jeff Lemire has some amazing stuff coming out. He’s got Royal City, which I read in its infancy a bunch of times. It’s just a terrific, terrific series in the spirit of Essex County. It’s got a slightly sort of magical realist feel in one way, but on the other hand, it’s a really deep family drama. It’s great. He’s having a banner year.

The last thing I have to recommend too, from Image at least, is Curse Words by my buddy, Charles Soule and Ryan. Their stuff is so good. The series is funny and smart and really, really planned out. It’s got huge plans, the way Letter 44 did. That’s a great one too.

That’s kind of like my Image roundup right now. I’m sure I’m missing or forgetting some stuff that I should say but -

Matt: It’s a great list.

Scott: Then also, I’d have to plug from DC a little bit. I’m so proud of my buddy James Tynion with Detective right now. He’s just murdering it. He’s so good. He’s my student a long time ago. Now I’m learning from him when I read his stuff. He’s doing Detective is this team book with all the characters he’s always wanted to write. It’s just a great read for anybody that loves the bad family and kind of big soap operatic kind of narrative. There’s a lot of good stuff going on, you know? I’m sure … Apologies to anyone I left out. Ben Percy. He’s a good friend too.

Overall, I don’t know. I think it’s a good time to be a comic fan. I know there’s a lot of worry in the industry and all that about the direct market and the business. I hear about it a lot. DC and all that stuff too at Image. You can just hear conversations always around when you’re doing stuff that has to do with planning of the line or teaching or that stuff that involves any of the publishing stuff. On a readership level, I don’t know. I think it’s still a pretty golden time to be a fan. I feel lucky.

Matt: Absolutely. We’re all super lucky to be in it right now. The two issues that I have to quickly mention that were office favorites for the last two months were the two parter in Batman, with Batman and Catwoman on the rooftop.

Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: By Tom King. Was that Mitch? Mitch Gerards.

Tia: Yeah.

Scott: That’s who I left out! Thank you, dude. When Tom who won 2016’s Best Writer, in my head, like who is easily with vision, the Sheriff of Babylon in Omega Man and Batman, like the best writer of last year, I think Lemire’s the best writer this year. Even though it’s like a month in. I know what he has coming is why. I think he’s going to take the crown this year. Yeah, man, that Tom, kudos. He’s become like family as well. We’re very, very close. I give him a ton of credit.

Tia: Well I’m just going to add to this list of spectacular books. A.D. After Death? I don’t know if you guys have heard of it? It’s by Scott Snyder and Jeff Lemire. Also, you could check out all of Wytches on CU, which we have in celebration of the 25th anniversary of Image. I’m so glad I got to talk to you, Scott. Thank you so much.

Scott: No, it’s a pleasure. I can’t wait to do it again. Thanks for having me. Again, congratulations on everything to you guys too. ComiXology has just been awesome. Right before you called, I was catching up on all kinds of things through Suicide Squad. That’s after all the stuff I have to read for work and enjoy all of comiXology on my kid’s iPad. Thank you guys for doing everything, making it easy to enjoy the thing that we all like to enjoy.

Matt: Thank you very much, Scott! We’ll talk soon.

Scott: You got it. Take care guys.